Oceania University of Medicine

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Type	public-private
Established	2002
Chairman	Taffy Gould
Chancellor	Dr. Chris May
Vice-Chancellor	Dr. Viali Lameko
Location	Apia, Samoa
Website	www.oum.edu.ws

Oceania University of Medicine (OUM) is a Samoan-chartered medical school operated through a public-private partnership between the Government of Samoa and e-Medical Education, LLC, a Florida-based company. The OUM curriculum is divided into two phases: preclinical and clinical. The preclinical phase is offered via distance learning while the clinical phases offers hands-on learning in a clinical settings at regional teaching hospitals.

The medical school was founded in 2002 by philanthropist Taffy Gould, a handful of Australian doctors, and others to fill a void: a shortage of medical personnel in the South Pacific.

Due to Samoa’s and the surrounding islands’ remote location, an online curriculum with local physician mentors evolved. Aspiring physicians in other areas were experiencing similar barriers in pursuing a medical degree due to geographical isolation and/or personal commitments. Soon OUM began receiving applications from all over the world.

History[edit]

Oceania University of Medicine (OUM) operates under a charter executed by the Government of Independent Samoa (formerly Western Samoa), as an autonomous statutory corporation operating in partnership with the Samoan government, represented by the prime minister. Its authority derives from the Oceania University of Medicine Act, ratified by the Parliament of Samoa in January 2002. e-Medical Education, LLC, an international software and health science education company, operates OUM as part of the agreement.

Academics[edit]

The mission of Oceania University of Medicine is to produce physicians with the requisite knowledge, skills, and attitudes to improve the health of underserved communities in Oceania and beyond, via traditional and innovative instructional modalities to help individuals overcome distance, personal and professional barriers to realize their calling to the medical profession.

OUM students are required to complete at least one four-week clinical rotation at OUM’s home in the South Pacific. Clerkships are available in the nation of Independent Samoa and the US territory of American Samoa.

Two-thirds of Independent Samoa’s population lives on the largest island, Upolu, which is where the capital, Apia, and national hospital are. The National Hospital is in the village of Motootua, a suburb of Apia. Student housing is in walking distance of the health complex.

American Samoa‘s capital, Pago Pago, is home to LBJ Tropical Medical Center which hosts OUM students from the United States, Australia, New Zealand, and other countries.

Recognition and accreditation[edit]

OUM is listed in the World Directory of Medical Schools, a joint project of the World Federation for Medical Education (WFME) and the Foundation for Advancement of International Medical Education and Research (FAIMER). It is recognized by the Education Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG).

OUM was granted formal accreditation by the Philippine Accrediting Association of Schools, Colleges and Universities (PAASCU) in 2010, making OUM the only internationally accredited medical school in the South Pacific. In May 2015, PAASCU re-accredited OUM for a five-year period through 2020. PAASCU is one of 20 accrediting bodies recognized by the US Department of Education’s National Committee on Foreign Medical Education and Accreditation (NCFMEA). NCFMEA identifies and vets accrediting bodies outside of the United States that use standards comparable to those used to accredit medical schools in the United States.

Graduates seeking employment in Australia need to complete their AMC examinations and obtain general registration with AHPRA in Australia. International medical schools are Priority 5 for internship allocation. OUM does not guarantee successful employment on graduation.

Faculty[edit]

The OUM faculty reflects the diversity of the student body. Faculty from Australia, New Zealand, and the United States work collaboratively to deliver a common internationally applicable medical curriculum based largely on American and Australian medical education standards. There is considerable focus on the licensing standards and requirements for the countries where graduates intend to practice.

All faculty have earned MBBS, MD, PhD, and other terminal degrees in their fields. Faculty members teach classes and serve as academic advisors.

Student demographics[edit]

OUM’s flexible program appeals to a wide variety of students—from recent college graduates, to working professionals interested in changing careers, with the average age of 40.5 years and an age range of 24–62. The distance-learning component is attractive to those already in the medical field.

Much of OUM’s student body is made up of nurse practitioners, nurses, chiropractors, physical therapists, physician assistants, pharmacists, paramedics, respiratory therapists, podiatrists, and other healthcare professionals. Approximately half OUM’s students hold master’s degrees and ten percent have earned a doctorate. The majority of OUM students live in Australia, New Zealand, and the United States, but the student body represents more than 40 countries of origin.

OUM graduates are completing post-graduate internships, residencies or fellowships or working as practitioners in Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Samoa, and many metropolitan areas of the United States.^{[citation needed]}

Curriculum[edit]

The OUM MD program consists of a preclinical component, available online and lasting a total of 96 weeks, followed by 72 weeks of clinical rotations learning hands-on patient care in a teaching hospital.

The preclinical curriculum is delivered via e-learning technology, allowing students to participate in group discussions and interact with faculty in a virtual classroom setting. While students may access the preclinical modules remotely, the 72 weeks of clinical clerkships take place at teaching hospitals in Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Samoa, the United States, and other countries with supplemental online lectures.

OUM’s programs operate on a rolling admissions schedule that allows new students to enroll in January or July.

External links[edit]

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This page was last edited on 11 March 2021, at 20:31 (UTC).
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Home PA Doctorate Online Medical School: A Review of Oceania University of Medicine

Online Medical School: A Review of Oceania University of Medicine

THE PA DOCTORPA DOCTORATE

Oceania University of Medicine is the world’s first and only online medical school. While they’ve been around since 2002, they still haven’t gained much recognition or respect. But why? Is there something inherently wrong with online education or does it have more to do with “us vs them”?

The World Goes Online

20 years ago, when the internet was dominated by the likes of Yahoo and AOL, doing anything online other than email was pretty taboo. Amazon and Google were only a few years old. YouTube and Facebook hadn’t even been conceived yet. And no one wanted to admit that they actually met someone on Match.com. I was “coming of age” right around this time. When I was young, the internet was still dial-up and cost $4.95 a month. But even then, online education wasn’t new. It was just entering adolescence itself.

Education Goes the Distance

Distance education was born well before the internet. In fact, a precursor to the internet was actually developed by the University of Illinois to allow students access to course materials and recorded lectures.

The history of distance education goes back even further. The University of Wisconsin–Madison started sending lectures on phonograph records to students across the country in 1906. By 1925, both Penn State and the University of Iowa were broadcasting lectures on the radio. As soon as televisions were commonplace, credit could be earned via broadcasts from the University of Houston. https://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/pagead/ads?client=ca-pub-7248726836778895&output=html&h=280&adk=49322662&adf=2812392064&pi=t.aa~a.1381849204~i.11~rp.4&w=1025&fwrn=4&fwrnh=100&lmt=1624309901&num_ads=1&rafmt=1&armr=3&sem=mc&pwprc=8278948722&tp=site_kit&psa=1&ad_type=text_image&format=1025×280&url=https%3A%2F%2Fthepadoctor.com%2Fonline-medical-school-review-oceania-university-of-medicine%2F&flash=0&fwr=0&pra=3&rh=200&rw=1025&rpe=1&resp_fmts=3&wgl=1&fa=27&adsid=ChEI8PHAhgYQ9Jjr6J2ExqPgARJMAI4vGIhIE93JJthj8Zz9HwyV4f3_gYgg59vXuiEBnxlyh8onb46blK5IuPEcUdzG16iPiY4zXtzPP-BHWcTYmeG7d9WkjQp9EwbNXA&uach=WyJXaW5kb3dzIiwiMTAuMCIsIng4NiIsIiIsIjkxLjAuNDQ3Mi4xMTQiLFtdXQ..&dt=1624313542194&bpp=5&bdt=3305&idt=5&shv=r20210616&cbv=%2Fr20190131&ptt=9&saldr=aa&abxe=1&cookie=ID%3D70aaf84800459d96-22697a6a19c900e3%3AT%3D1624296830%3ART%3D1624296830%3AS%3DALNI_MY44khsXUvunS6PyZchQAPdThOL3Q&prev_fmts=0x0%2C1349x695&nras=3&correlator=1580108023859&frm=20&pv=1&ga_vid=1338026093.1624296829&ga_sid=1624313540&ga_hid=2065951814&ga_fc=0&u_tz=60&u_his=1&u_java=0&u_h=768&u_w=1366&u_ah=768&u_aw=1366&u_cd=24&u_nplug=3&u_nmime=4&adx=162&ady=1823&biw=1349&bih=695&scr_x=0&scr_y=0&eid=42530672%2C31060031%2C31061047&oid=3&pvsid=4268210314973812&pem=32&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&eae=0&fc=1408&brdim=0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C1366%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C1366%2C695&vis=1&rsz=%7C%7Cs%7C&abl=NS&fu=128&bc=31&jar=2021-06-21-22&ifi=2&uci=a!2&btvi=1&fsb=1&xpc=lz6RKyaQSz&p=https%3A//thepadoctor.com&dtd=M

But surely medicine could never be taught this way, right? Actually, in 1965 the University of Wisconsin started implementing telephone correspondence for their medical students across the state. Michigan State University started harnessing the internet to instruct first-year medical students over 10 years ago. The faculty of Michigan’s MD and DO programs created online resources such as audio and video lectures, online homework, virtual labs, and more. The school envisions a model where all basic science courses are available online with the exception of gross anatomy labs.

And then there’s Yale. The Yale School of Medicine has operated a Physician Associate program since the early 1970s. In 2015, they announced a new division of their renowned program that would offer the first 3 semesters, also known also the “didactic year”, entirely online. The last 3 semesters, the “clinical year”, would be completed at teaching hospitals and local clinics as per usual. Students would spend several weeks on campus for immersive hands-on training. The inaugural class began in January of 2018. It would be the first time in the schools’ 300 year existence that a student could obtain a Yale degree without being on campus. Some of the first students to enroll included a PharmD and a medic of 20 years.

Online by Choice

Ok, so online or distance learning isn’t new and it’s gaining momentum. But would you have guessed that traditional medical students spend just as much time learning online as those in newer, more novel programs?

A 2018 survey by the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC) revealed that nearly 25% of second-year medical students “almost never” attended class during their first two years of medical school. Really? What were they doing? According to an article in STAT based on the previous year’s survey, these students “follow along with the class remotely, watching sped-up recordings of their professors at home, in their pajamas. Others rarely tune in.” https://googleads.g.doubleclick.net/pagead/ads?client=ca-pub-7248726836778895&output=html&h=280&adk=49322662&adf=1147578430&pi=t.aa~a.1381849204~i.21~rp.4&w=1025&fwrn=4&fwrnh=100&lmt=1624309901&num_ads=1&rafmt=1&armr=3&sem=mc&pwprc=8278948722&tp=site_kit&psa=1&ad_type=text_image&format=1025×280&url=https%3A%2F%2Fthepadoctor.com%2Fonline-medical-school-review-oceania-university-of-medicine%2F&flash=0&fwr=0&pra=3&rh=200&rw=1025&rpe=1&resp_fmts=3&wgl=1&fa=27&adsid=ChEI8PHAhgYQ9Jjr6J2ExqPgARJMAI4vGIhIE93JJthj8Zz9HwyV4f3_gYgg59vXuiEBnxlyh8onb46blK5IuPEcUdzG16iPiY4zXtzPP-BHWcTYmeG7d9WkjQp9EwbNXA&uach=WyJXaW5kb3dzIiwiMTAuMCIsIng4NiIsIiIsIjkxLjAuNDQ3Mi4xMTQiLFtdXQ..&dt=1624313542208&bpp=2&bdt=3319&idt=2&shv=r20210616&cbv=%2Fr20190131&ptt=9&saldr=aa&abxe=1&cookie=ID%3D70aaf84800459d96-22697a6a19c900e3%3AT%3D1624296830%3ART%3D1624296830%3AS%3DALNI_MY44khsXUvunS6PyZchQAPdThOL3Q&prev_fmts=0x0%2C1349x695%2C1025x280&nras=4&correlator=1580108023859&frm=20&pv=1&ga_vid=1338026093.1624296829&ga_sid=1624313540&ga_hid=2065951814&ga_fc=0&u_tz=60&u_his=1&u_java=0&u_h=768&u_w=1366&u_ah=768&u_aw=1366&u_cd=24&u_nplug=3&u_nmime=4&adx=162&ady=2723&biw=1349&bih=695&scr_x=0&scr_y=0&eid=42530672%2C31060031%2C31061047&oid=3&pvsid=4268210314973812&pem=32&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&eae=0&fc=1408&brdim=0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C1366%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C1366%2C695&vis=1&rsz=%7C%7Cs%7C&abl=NS&fu=128&bc=31&jar=2021-06-21-22&ifi=3&uci=a!3&btvi=2&fsb=1&xpc=oeuE0JbnS4&p=https%3A//thepadoctor.com&dtd=M

Lawrence Wang, who at the time was a third-year M.D.-Ph.D. student at the University of California, San Diego was quoted as saying, “There were times that I didn’t go to a single class, and then I’d get to the actual exam and it would be my first time seeing the professor. Especially, when Step was coming up, I pretty much completely focused on studying outside materials.”

The 2018 AAMC survey reported a few other interesting stats. For example, 66% of the surveyed medical students reported using online videos, such as YouTube, either daily or weekly. 79% reported regularly using other online sources such as Wikipedia. Yeah, it’s true. Check it out.

Online by Chance

And then there’s Harvard. Like other schools, medical or not, Harvard is scrambling to respond to the fall out of COVID-19. Rather than postpone classes for incoming first-year medical students, all classes will be moving online.

The Deans of Harvard’s Medical School don’t seem too concerned, however. In an email breaking the news, they said, “We are confident that we can uphold the excellence that is the signature of a Harvard education. We are also committed to assisting our teaching faculty in designing online courses that meet these high standards and in supporting technologies that bolster our teaching and learning initiatives.”

Online Medical School: The Future?

So, when is medical school officially going to go online? PA schools are doing it. NP schools are doing it. Medical students are already doing it. It turns out, there is a medical school allowing students to complete their didactic training online.

Oceania University of Medicine (OUM) was founded in 2002 by a private group in cooperation with the Samoan government. The program was developed in response to “Samoa’s remote location and shortage of physicians.” Over half of OUMs students are nurses, nurse practitioners, or physician assistants.

The world’s first online medical school will take you “4-and-a-half to 5 years” to complete and includes real-time virtual classroom sessions via Zoom. If you choose a part-time schedule, you’re projected to finish in about 6 years.

During the online “preclinical” phase, OUM’s online medical students are required to choose a physician mentor in their community. These mentors offer real-world experience and assess the students’ developing clinical skills. Physician mentors receive a “modest honorarium”.

online medical school oceania university of medicine preclinical

The clinical phase of the program is similar to any other medical school and consists of hospital-based clinical rotations. Students at Oceania’s online medical school must spend at least one 4-week rotation on the island of Samoa.

OUMs catalogue states that most core rotations, as well as many electives, are available at the Tupua Tamasese Meaole Hospital in Apia, Samoa. The school has formal relationships with teaching hospitals in Chicago, Illinois and McAllen, Texas. OUM students have also trained in Australia, New Zealand, India, and Europe.

online medical school oceania university of medicine clinical

What does it cost to attend medical school online at Oceania University of Medicine? Just over $165,000. No financial aid is available meaning students rely exclusively on private loans or OUMs payment plan that spreads the cost of each year over 12 months.

No MCAT is required for admission but applicants from the US must have completed a full year of chemistry and completed a Bachelor’s degree with a GPA of 3 or better.

Students from Online Medical School vs The Match

A medical school degree, be it from an online program or not, isn’t worth much unless you can “match” to a residency, complete your training, and actually end up working as a physician. “The Match” refers to the process of matching medical school seniors with residency programs based on ranked lists provided by each. It’s at once a brilliant and ridiculous system deciding the fate of almost 45,000 soon-to-be doctors each year.

The Match, sponsored by the non-profit National Residency Matching Program (NRMP), claims to be “100% objective, 100% accurate, and 100% committed to a fair and transparent process.”

Except it works something like this:

Yeah, I definitely want to do that… But in all seriousness, it’s the only way to go.

Unfortunately, the other major flaw (besides a machine deciding your future) is that there simply aren’t enough residency positions to go around. Overall around 15% of medical school grads don’t match; no match means no job. The math is even worse for IMGs (international medical graduates) such as those graduating from Oceania University of Medicine.

Just over 5,000 American students studying at international medical schools registered for the most recent 2020 Match. Only 61% matched with a post-graduate training program. That means that around 2,000 are essentially out of luck. There are a few options for students who don’t match but remember that those 2,000 American IMGs are joined by another 5,000 American MD and DO grads as well as foreign-born IMGs. Those are some tough odds. I can’t imagine it’s any easier if you went to an online medical school…

What Say You, OUM?

How well do OUM students perform in the Match? Well, that’s a tough question. It would actually be easier to answer how many students have actually graduated from OUM–the answer? 66. Yes, 6-6. Since 2002. Yikes.

OUM has 150 students currently enrolled. Let’s assume that they’ve had half that on a yearly basis over the last 18 years since their inception.

75 students a year x 18 years = 1350 total students

1350 students / 66 graduates = 5% graduation rate

Those aren’t great odds.

License to Heal

After completing a residency, physicians must obtain licensure from the US state where they wish to practice. It’s a real possibility that even after having passed the USMLE licensing exams and completed a residency, you still wouldn’t be able to actually find employment as a OUM grad.

Oceania’s website states that they have graduates practicing in Arizona, DC, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, and Virginia. That’s not a huge list and I have to assume that not all of their 66 grads actually made it through the Match and into the workforce.

I really believe that online medical school will one day go mainstream. Some storied pillar of education like Harvard or Yale will just decide to go for it and they’ll be hailed as pioneers. It just won’t be Oceania University of Medicine.

The Future of the Physician

What other options do aspiring doctors have? How about this one. Or this one?

Physician training in the United States is far from perfect. It’s redundant, time-consuming, and relies on the Federal government to get trainees over the goal line via residency training. An online medical school doesn’t really change any of that–it would just make it harder for everyone to complete the process by overcrowding the match. The government has proven incapable of solving the residency problem and special interest groups like the AMA aren’t helping.

Medical school graduates aren’t capable of practicing without residency training, either. They spend half of their medical school experience reviewing basic sciences and taking time off for holidays and interviewing. Self-proclaimed Associate Physicians are trying to change that but ultimately they’re just folks that couldn’t pass their boards–not the kind of doctor most want to see.

There has got to be a better way to train doctors! There is! the equation goes something like this: Take a well-trained PA (proven over 50 years to provide care on par with residency-trained physicians), add 1-2 years of additional clinical education and what do you have? A clinically-trained Doctor of Medical Science.

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Oceania University of Medicine (Online and In Person Clinicals)

Discussion in ‘General Distance Learning Discussions‘ started by Garp, Mar 17, 2020.https://widget.searchschoolsnetwork.com/widget.jsp?&wgtcss=https://www.degreeinfo.com/cpstyles/ad-widget2.css&quad=http://c.cliop.com/cgi/r?;n=203;c=1420905;s=16502;x=7936;f=201403311352100;u=j;z=TIMESTAMP;&clr=orange&hdr=0&box=0&wtpl=1&PubWebSiteName=www.degreeinfo.comPage 1 of 31 2 3 Next >

GarpActive MemberIt is interesting in the current Covid-19 crisis that many or most schools are transitioning to online learning and this includes medical schools. Many people scoffed at the idea of online medical education with in person clinicals and yet perhaps Oceania was simply ahead of the curve. I know Walden and others have been using that model with Nurse Practitioner programs.Online learning still has a stigma in certain sectors that is less about quantifiable issues and more about perception. This crisis if long enough may change some of those approaches.Garp, Mar 17, 2020 #1
Marcus AureliusActive MemberThere are now many online nurse practitioner programs. If they can make it work, there’s no reason why the academic part of medical school can’t be online, too. I still believe in-person is best for learning medical skills (like sewing wounds and patient assessments).Marcus Aurelius, Mar 17, 2020 #2
LearningAddictWell-Known MemberMarcus Aurelius said: ↑There are now many online nurse practitioner programs. If they can make it work, there’s no reason why the academic part of medical school can’t be online, too. I still believe in-person is best for learning medical skills (like sewing wounds and patient assessments).Agreed. As far as I know, any legitimate medical school offering online programs be it for PA or MD education, mandates in-person clinicals. The 3 or so online medical schools that turn out MDs all mandate in-person clinicals.LearningAddict, Mar 22, 2020 #3
copperActive MemberMarcus Aurelius said: ↑There are now many online nurse practitioner programs. If they can make it work, there’s no reason why the academic part of medical school can’t be online, too. I still believe in-person is best for learning medical skills (like sewing wounds and patient assessments).I’m skeptical about the quality of Nurse practitioners that learned online. In my experience, it’s a mixed bag of clinical competency. I’m sorry, but there are numerous schools offering online NP programs and it seems like the quality is almost diploma millish! I know they have upped the clinical hours to 1000, hopefully that helps! Don’t get me wrong, I believe online learning is the “new paradigm” but too many for profit schools are capitalizing on it and offer a poor product! I think Hybrid is a good compromise offering mixed on campus with the power of online learning and obviously hands on clinical. Calling it “online” is not really accurate. My friends daughter is in a US medical school (MD) and a lot of the coursework is currently being taught online because of COVID19. Online is simply another tool but unfortunately, there are many schools that market their garbage product.Last edited: Mar 22, 2020copper, Mar 22, 2020 #4
KizmetModeratorStaff Membercopper said: ↑Online is simply another tool but unfortunately, there are many schools that market their garbage product.I am not in the medical field but I would be interested in having you show us one of these “garbage” NP programs.Kizmet, Mar 22, 2020 #5 SteveFoerster likes this.
LearningAddictWell-Known MemberI don’t think it’s fair to center it as another evil of the for-profit sector, because even though it’s possible there are far more for-profit nursing programs than non-profit, online nursing programs are the hot thing that it seems everybody is looking to offer, non-profit and for-profit alike. My skepticism of NP programs has more to do with my lack of faith that NPs are sufficiently trained to work independently and I’m not alone on that skepticism at all.I’ve read on a number of occasions RN’s say that their BSN training was practically worthless because as an experienced RN they already knew most of the information and what they didn’t know wasn’t particularly useful in real-world practice. Would some say the same about their DNP programs? Maybe, but sometimes that’s held back by a person’s desire not to down their own accomplishment of getting a doctorate.LearningAddict, Mar 22, 2020 #6
KizmetModeratorStaff MemberLearningAddict said: ↑.

I’ve read on a number of occasions RN’s say that their BSN training was practically worthless because as an experienced RN they already knew most of the information and what they didn’t know wasn’t particularly useful in real-world practice. Would some say the same about their DNP programs? Maybe, but sometimes that’s held back by a person’s desire not to down their own accomplishment of getting a doctorate.OK but somewhere in there you made a jump from NP programs to DNP programs. They’re not the same thing, are they?Kizmet, Mar 22, 2020 #7
copperActive MemberKizmet said: ↑I am not in the medical field but I would be interested in having you show us one of these “garbage” NP programs.I would rather discuss quality schools. Here are a few 100% online NP schools Walden, Grand Canyon, Maryville, Chamberlain, Kaplan that pump out NPs like a factory mill. I wouldn’t trust their graduates to prescribe Amoxicillin! Overall, State Universities with medical facilities staffed with tenured professors and practicing clinicians produce fine graduates/clinicians. Just my opinion though and I am sure there are exceptions.Last edited: Mar 22, 2020copper, Mar 22, 2020 #8
AsianStewActive MemberHmm, I just checked their tuition, and added it up (somewhat quickly so this maybe a rough estimate). If you get admitted into their MD program, total cost will be around $100K which isn’t too bad. For me, I don’t have that kind of money, so… back to the drawing board. Actually, back to homework and studying…AsianStew, Mar 22, 2020 #9
KizmetModeratorStaff Membercopper said: ↑I would rather discuss quality schools.OK, but I think it was you that brought it up.Here are a few 100% online NP schools Walden, Grand Canyon, Maryville, Chamberlain, Kaplan that pump out NPs like a factory mill. I wouldn’t trust their graduates to prescribe Amoxicillin!I only looked at Walden. Their program is not only Regionally Accredited but also professionally accredited. They say that the are the #1 provider of advanced nursing degrees in the U.S. so they’re obviously popular and people clearly complete the program. It’s hard to see that as a bad thing.Kizmet, Mar 23, 2020 #10 SteveFoerster likes this.
LearningAddictWell-Known MemberKizmet said: ↑OK but somewhere in there you made a jump from NP programs to DNP programs. They’re not the same thing, are they?I don’t see any actual conflict there given that my main point is about skepticism of NP programs irrespective of degree level. But I would say a Doctor of Nursing Practice program is a Nursing Practice program, same subject, so in that sense they are the same thing except that the degree levels can be different.LearningAddict, Mar 23, 2020 #11
LearningAddictWell-Known Membercopper said: ↑I would rather discuss quality schools. Here are a few 100% online NP schools Walden, Grand Canyon, Maryville, Chamberlain, Kaplan that pump out NPs like a factory mill. I wouldn’t trust their graduates to prescribe Amoxicillin! Overall, State Universities with medical facilities staffed with tenured professors and practicing clinicians produce fine graduates/clinicians. Just my opinion though and I am sure there are exceptions.I believe Maryville is a non-profit even though they market like a for-profit is stereotypically (but not necessarily inaccurately) viewed as marketing, and Kaplan is dead (but can be seen as still living, just as a zombie under Purdue’s Global brand).But I think your post indirectly raises an interesting question about testing and licensing and determining adequacy. If people are able to complete their programs and pass all of the necessary licensing tests and requirements to reach practice, what more would you personally need to see in order for them to gain your trust?LearningAddict, Mar 23, 2020 #12
copperActive MemberKizmet said: ↑OK, but I think it was you that brought it up.

I only looked at Walden. Their program is not only Regionally Accredited but also professionally accredited. They say that the are the #1 provider of advanced nursing degrees in the U.S. so they’re obviously popular and people clearly complete the program. It’s hard to see that as a bad thing.Seriously? You really believe an online trained NP compares to a University Hospital trained medical provider? Please do not let the white lab coat fool you! You have no idea the resources available at a fully funded brick and mortar Research University Hospital! I suspect Oceania is another big joke and any idiot that spends a $100k on an offshore online medical school probably couldn’t get accepted to a US school in the first place!copper, Mar 23, 2020 #13
GarpActive MemberCopper, the online NP merely does the coursework online and the clinicals are done at hospitals, etc. Same with Oceania and now every medical school.Is Oceania a joke? No. It is accredited and allows students to become doctors in the US and Australia (and elsewhere). It is very expensive and has high attrition rates (according to SDN). Is it a first choice? I highly doubt it. They seem to deal with slightly older people and those with medical backgrounds (nurses, NPs and PAs). They have agreements with some US places for clinical rotations. There have been people become US doctors but it is a hard slog up hill. One man posted about his wife’s journey. It took longer, cost far more and required a huge amount of effort but she did match for residency.The attrition rate at most US schools is not bad. The attrition rate at Carribean schools can be high. The problem with that is not only crushed dreams but potentially large students loans without the MD income to pay them back.copper said: ↑Seriously? You really believe an online trained NP compares to a University Hospital trained medical provider? Please do not let the white lab coat fool you! You have no idea the resources available at a fully funded brick and mortar Research University Hospital! I suspect Oceania is another big joke and any idiot that spends a $100k on an offshore online medical school probably couldn’t get accepted to a US school in the first place!Garp, Mar 23, 2020 #14
copperActive MemberGarp said: ↑Copper, the online NP merely does the coursework online and the clinicals are done at hospitals, etc. Same with Oceania and now every medical school.

Is Oceania a joke? No. It is accredited and allows students to become doctors in the US and Australia (and elsewhere). It is very expensive and has high attrition rates (according to SDN). Is it a first choice? I highly doubt it. They seem to deal with slightly older people and those with medical backgrounds (nurses, NPs and PAs). They have agreements with some US places for clinical rotations. There have been people become US doctors but it is a hard slog up hill. One man posted about his wife’s journey. It took longer, cost far more and required a huge amount of effort but she did match for residency.

The attrition rate at most US schools is not bad. The attrition rate at Carribean schools can be high. The problem with that is not only crushed dreams but potentially large students loans without the MD income to pay them back.I’ve been in healthcare for 25 years and there are no shortcuts! I’ve seen these online NP students and foreign MD students struggling to get placed in US clinicals with board certified physicians. Some have even offered money to Mentors to get the time they need to pass their online course. The fact is, they usually have the students stand there and observe and get very little hands on experience because the Physicians don’t want to lose their paying patients. Patients in private practice clinics is the bread and butter for the Physician and taking on a student is more or less an inconvenience. University Hospitals are set up as teaching hospitals and patients are very much aware of that! In addition, the University has clinical rotations integrated into the program unlike online schools where the student has to arrange clinicals with Uncle Joe. Trust me, if you are considering becoming a medical provider, go to a Brick and Mortar University with a Hospital and ancillary clinics. You will be light years ahead and better prepared and it may even cost less tuition.copper, Mar 23, 2020 #15
KizmetModeratorStaff MemberOne of the things that is true on this board is that we are relatively comfortable with the concept of “levels of goodness.” Most people would agree that a degree from Fort Hays State University is good but that a degree from Harvard is better. We have multiple ranking systems and the underlying idea is that some schools are better than others. The idea that a Nursing program that is attached to a large teaching hospital is “good” is not a stretch for anyone. We start to have a little problem with the black and white thinking that says that anything other than that is “garbage.” This is especially true when the only evidence presented is a small set of vague anecdotes. Your preferred program, the university teaching hospital, might be the ideal sort of set up but all the accreditors disagree with you about the programs you described so negatively. So do all the employers, including your employer. Perhaps you should go to your HR department and explain to them that they’re hiring a lot of substandard nurses. I, for one, believe that there are many knowledgeable and skilled nurses coming out of the schools you listed (Walden, etc.) just as there are a few clunkers coming out of a place like UMass Medical School.Kizmet, Mar 23, 2020 #16 Marcus Aurelius likes this.
copperActive MemberIf the NP can get a one to two year post graduate fellowship, undoubtedly, proficiency and clinical decision making soars regardless of where they went to school. However, in my opinion, the Lion’s share of NPs trained with 500 to a 1000 hours of clinical training are grossly unprepared for unsupervised “Independent practice” even though many State licensing boards allow it! I’m sorry if you all disagree with me but these online NP schools are pumping out graduates that are not adequately trained for the scope of practice their license allows!For example, some States require Psychiatric NPs receive 2000 to 4000 hours of post graduate supervision before independent practice. Other States will allow a Psych NP from an online 500 hour program to practice independently with full scope. I mean what the hell? There appears to be no standardization or consensus across the country for these independent providers.Last edited: Mar 23, 2020copper, Mar 23, 2020 #17
copperActive MemberAdditionally, don’t confuse accreditation with patient protection! Accreditation means the institution has met the minimum academic standard. It is a scam and outright scary to see an RN with a MSN go to an online post graduate certificate program with as few as 500 hours of clinical training and be granted full independent medical practice by many States! You may be able to convince me there are a few brilliant nurses out there that can meet the challenge but not the thousands of “advanced nurses” these online factory mills are pumping out!copper, Mar 23, 2020 #18
KizmetModeratorStaff Membercopper said: ↑I’m sorry if you all disagree with me but these online NP schools are pumping out graduates that are not adequately trained for the scope of practice their license allows!It’s not just us disagreeing with you. It’s everyone. Everyone that matters, at least.There appears to be no standardization or consensus across the country for these independent providers.Of course this is true. It is state law that determines these matters and, no surprise, different states have different standards. We’ve been talking about this in regards to Counseling degrees for years.Kizmet, Mar 23, 2020 #19
LearningAddictWell-Known Membercopper said: ↑I would rather discuss quality schools. Here are a few 100% online NP schools Walden, Grand Canyon, Maryville, Chamberlain, Kaplan that pump out NPs like a factory mill. I wouldn’t trust their graduates to prescribe Amoxicillin! Overall, State Universities with medical facilities staffed with tenured professors and practicing clinicians produce fine graduates/clinicians. Just my opinion though and I am sure there are exceptions.LearningAddict said: ↑But I think your post indirectly raises an interesting question about testing and licensing and determining adequacy. If people are able to complete their programs and pass all of the necessary licensing tests and requirements to reach practice, what more would you personally need to see in order for them to gain your trust?Still interested in your thoughts on this. I actually agree with having reservations about NP programs leading to independent practice for a number of reasons, but for me that concern stays whether it’s from an online or offline program.If I can piece together some of the things you’ve said in newer posts, your concern seems to be that there isn’t much actual hands-on training and clinical hours? That sounds like a very valid concern. Is this a bigger concern for you than an NP program being online or from a for-profit school? And do we know if what you’re concerned about is common across the board for all schools offering NP programs, or do you see it as just an online or for-profit issue? If so, then I would say the concern is even more valid, but how can we know for sure?LearningAddict, Mar 23, 2020 #20

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Oceania University of Medicine (OUM) question

Nontraditional Premed Discussion Jul 20161 / 10Jul 2016Jul 2016

stp1Jul ’16

Hello all,

I am new here. Wondering if anyone has a feedback (preferably facts, but anything goes…) about OUM?

I have found very little via Google. Is it legit? Is it truly a nightmare to find residency in US after passing USMLEs? EVEN if residency let’s say in in FAMILY or INTERNAL medicine (specialties I conveniently love anyway) in a relatively rural area (I also love to work with rural population) US/North East?

Why OUM vs. US MD/DO track? Short answer: speed. Long answer: I would need to complete 2 years of premed courses and take MCAT, that’s providing I do it full-time, plus 8 years of school and residency. That’s 10 years, again full-time. This would not possible because of work and family… I am in my VERY late 40-s.

I have thoroughly considered my options and only something like OUM would be feasible for me. I have MS in nursing. I have always-always loved medicine, but had to become an nurse due to life circumstances. I hoped a NP degree would be a compromise, but it did not work out this way. First of all, FNP program was not what I was hoping it would be; it would be too long to go into details of NP program and its pitfalls. Second of all, after I became practicing NP in primary care, I have cried every SINGLE day out of frustration and inability to provide competent care as a mid-level provider even though I have years of solid nursing experience. I felt like an impostor every single day I was at work. This feeling did not change even after 3 years of working as an NP.

Studies at med school do not terrify me, I am looking forward to them actually. I have always liked studying even while being an NP student, my GPA has always been close to 4.0. So, time basically is the challenge.

I appreciate any info you could provide re: OUM and your opinion upon re: whether I should gamble $$$ and family peace.

Sincerely,

Orange

createdJul ’16
last reply Jul ’16
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kennymacJul ’16

Lots of info out there on the increasing # of US graduates with stagnant numbers of residency spots. End result: most likely harder for foreign grads to get any US residencies.

Financially, there’s risk of dumping money into a degree that won’t land you a US residency. I don’t think standard student loans from the US Gov can be used on foreign schools either, so could you assume all of the debt and all of the risk. The school says the program takes at LEAST 4 years, and some take longer. That means more family hardship and more cost. You should see what their graduation rate is, average USMLE scores, etc are. They don’t seem to advertise it on their page.

Academics: Online academics causes you to miss out on a lot of the collegiality of the classroom (know from experience). Med school is hard, and part of what helps you get through it is being around others who are suffering as much as you are… It’s probably possible, but in the US, you’ll gain a lot more clinical experience and motivation during the first two years with longitudinal classes that focus on medicine vs just pure basic science.

Family: There’s a good chance you’ll have to travel, a lot, for rotations. And those rotations may be limited in locations (ie not where you live now) based on where the school has affiliations. Plus, on their website, you’d have to do at least 1 rotation in Samoa.

There are things you’ll ultimately have to balance out based on you and your family. The general consensus is do whatever it takes to get into a US program before contemplating a foreign school (if you want to gain a US residency and practice in the states).

stp1Jul ’16

Dear Kennymac,

thank you very much for your insightful comment. It is what I’ve suspected.

OK, plan B: I have looked into post-bacs locally (I do need to take ALL pre-med courses EXCEPT GEN. CHEM I, it’s like 32 credits of pre-meds). I have researched local post-bac programs and closest one is 2 hours away (one way!!!). I am thinking about doing them online from a reputable on-line program and then taking MCATs. I might take me 3-4 years to do so, considering I cannot quit my 35 hours/week job The good news is that my job will allow me to study most likely stress free (on most days). My plan is to start med-school when kids are off to college, I will be close to 55… =O =O =O.

In that regard, can you give, or anyone else in this forum, a strong recommendation for ONLINE pre-med courses??? Luckily I took chem. 1 in a super-tough CUNY school and got a “B” while working full-time nights as a nurse in critical care in late 90-s…

May there is hope for me?

Sincerely,

Orange

stp1Jul ’16

PS>

I have found your post re: UNE program on OPM site… Did it help you to get into med/DO school? Did it prepare you well for MCAT?

Thanks so much!!!

kennymacJul ’16

They were good for what they were meant to be…check the box courses while I was working (was contractually obligated for 10 years prior to med school, so I had time to kill…). The courses have changed since I took them from what I understand. The orgo series taught me enough to be familiar with terms and concepts when it came to MCAT study time (4 years after I took the courses), though I never really felt I knew the material all that well. A lot of that was my fault in not trying too terribly hard to really learn the stuff. I thought the biochem was actually pretty good, and was a good precursor to med school biochem. I’d like to think that the UNE courses are adequate since they’re run through the UNE COM.

Downside to online courses is that not all schools accept them. There are enough schools that take them now, and there will probably be more in the future. See some of my other posts about it for more info so I don’t become repetitive. Let me know if you have other questions.

UNE was pretty expensive, and I’m not sure how the loan situation works, especially for part-time. I was fortunate enough to get some of the cost offset through my job.

When all was said and done, I took a Kaplan self-paced MCAT prep course that I crammed into about 3 months. It was good enough to relearn all of the material and retain it for just long enough to take the test and do well enough to get in somewhere. That was the “old” MCAT, so there was less material for me to cram into my noggin…

stp1Jul ’16

Super,

thanks Kennymac! I will contact the schools that I plan to apply to and ask them. I can leverage pre-med courses’ cost without a loan, but that would be the least of problems. I unfortunately, cannot quit my job to do a formal post-bac. I might take DIY courses at a local college that, unfortunately, is heavily invested in preparing arts and humanities majors. Benefit would be: it is within walking distance from home and cost will be $0 because it is also my employer. They DO have science courses, however, and they do have pre-med majors. I guess, it might be better than online…??? Prospects of doing labs alongside kids who could be my children however is a little daunting to say the least 😮 , ha-ha! Plus, since this college is also my employer, I see a potential conflict of interest (word getting out etc.) I would not want to publicize my intent just yet. Is it ever easy?

Would you mind me asking, are you currently in med.school? What I am trying to get at, is whether the your online courses allowed you to get into school of your choice? Did adcom have any issues with that, but still took you, providing if you’re in?

Would med school turn you away if you have all A-s for premeds from a reputable accredited ONLINE school, good MCAT scores, plus BS and MS degree both with GPA 3.8 and several years work experience as an NP?

Thank you very much again!!!

Orange

kennymacJul ’16

I’m a 2nd year student in an MD program. It was my top choice school pre-interview and 2nd choice school post-interview, so I’m super excited about it. And yes, I would’ve wanted to go here even if I had all of my courses in a formal setting.

Not all schools accept online prereqs, and many of them are very straight forward about it either in the MSAR or on their websites. Some schools that do accept them say they “prefer” brick and mortar schools, and other schools say it doesn’t matter where you get the credits as long as you get the credits. As you get deeper into med school application stuff, you’ll find that every school wants something a little bit differently, so it’s really hard to be the perfect applicant everywhere.

I chose my schools based on who would take my credits. There was only one school that I was really considering that said absolutely no. If there is any doubt for a specific school, shoot their admissions office an email.

Your background, plus good (recent) grades, and a good MCAT score will make you competitive, just like a solid background, good grades, and good MCAT score would make the next person competitive. How you sell yourself can make a difference, too.

stp1Jul ’16

Thank you, Kennymac. You are very kind in answering my multiple posts. I did browse MSAR today and was disappointed to find that very few (can count on fingers of ONE hand) schools take online courses. I will write to all of them individually to confirm.

kennymacJul ’16

Really? I applied to something like 15 MD schools and got 5 interviews with online courses… My list is on a different computer, but I’ll try to find it and message it to you sometime.

There’s a difference in schools openly advertising they take online courses (I thought I found a good amount that did though) and schools that outright do not accept online courses (which was also blatantly advertised by some).

stp1Jul ’16

Oh, thank you for the hint! I appreciate in advance the PM. We can compare notes, I will share what I got formally from MSAR. I will write to ALL that I would like to apply to for that matter, openly online or not. Just to confirm. As I have learned from being in a medical field as a way to avoid med. errors, do not assume anything, double check even at the risk of appearing stupid, ha-ha! CC-wise, nothing locally pans out: spent hours searching schedules etc. : all would overlap with my work, there are no evening classes in its pure form; if there is an evening lab, there would be a day lecture etc. In a way, I learn a lot better outside classroom independently. I remember, years ago taking chemistry at the college that was highly rated by one adcom in the class with other 200 students, I was at the back, could not see or hear the professor. During labs, when I was busy doing experiments, someone pulled out brand new chem. textbook that I just got from my bag… I managed to get a B, but it was not a picnic. I would not have to go through the same again, if I can help it.

Many thanks in advance, you gave me hope Reply

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Oceania University of Medicine (OUM) question

Nontraditional Premed Discussion Jul 20161 / 10Jul 2016Jul 2016

stp1Jul ’16

createdJul ’16
last reply Jul ’16
9replies
2.6kviews
2users
6 4

kennymacJul ’16

stp1Jul ’16

stp1Jul ’16

PS>

I have found your post re: UNE program on OPM site… Did it help you to get into med/DO school? Did it prepare you well for MCAT?

Thanks so much!!!

kennymacJul ’16

stp1Jul ’16

kennymacJul ’16

stp1Jul ’16

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Primary Application Processing Nontraditional Premed Discussion	1	54	Jan 21
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International student with an international degree and no hope in doing post bacc in US with COVID situation Nontraditional Premed Discussion	0	99	Aug ’20
Developing a School List as A Formal Post Bacc Student Nontraditional Premed Discussion	0	88	Apr 30

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Oceania University of Medicine (OUM) question

Nontraditional Premed Discussion Jul 20161 / 10Jul 2016Jul 2016

stp1Jul ’16

createdJul ’16
last reply Jul ’16
9replies
2.6kviews
2users
6 4

kennymacJul ’16

stp1Jul ’16

stp1Jul ’16

PS>

I have found your post re: UNE program on OPM site… Did it help you to get into med/DO school? Did it prepare you well for MCAT?

Thanks so much!!!

kennymacJul ’16

stp1Jul ’16

kennymacJul ’16

stp1Jul ’16

Topic	Replies	Views	Activity
Nontrad career trajectory?Nontraditional Premed Discussion	1	195	Sep ’20
Primary Application Processing Nontraditional Premed Discussion	1	54	Jan 21
Can graduate credit hours be counted toward the 90 credit hour requirement?Nontraditional Premed Discussion	0	101	Aug ’20
International student with an international degree and no hope in doing post bacc in US with COVID situation Nontraditional Premed Discussion	0	99	Aug ’20
Developing a School List as A Formal Post Bacc Student Nontraditional Premed Discussion	0	88	Apr 30

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Oceania University of Medicine (OUM) question

Nontraditional Premed Discussion Jul 20161 / 10Jul 2016Jul 2016

stp1Jul ’16

createdJul ’16
last reply Jul ’16
9replies
2.6kviews
2users
6 4

kennymacJul ’16

stp1Jul ’16

stp1Jul ’16

PS>

I have found your post re: UNE program on OPM site… Did it help you to get into med/DO school? Did it prepare you well for MCAT?

Thanks so much!!!

kennymacJul ’16

stp1Jul ’16

kennymacJul ’16

stp1Jul ’16

Topic	Replies	Views	Activity
Nontrad career trajectory?Nontraditional Premed Discussion	1	195	Sep ’20
Primary Application Processing Nontraditional Premed Discussion	1	54	Jan 21
Can graduate credit hours be counted toward the 90 credit hour requirement?Nontraditional Premed Discussion	0	101	Aug ’20
International student with an international degree and no hope in doing post bacc in US with COVID situation Nontraditional Premed Discussion	0	99	Aug ’20
Developing a School List as A Formal Post Bacc Student Nontraditional Premed Discussion	0	88	Apr 30

Want to read more? Browse other topics in Nontraditional Premed Discussion or view latest topics.

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Oceania University of Medicine (OUM) is a public-private, for-profit medical school located in the South Pacific in Oceania. The medical school was founded in 2002 and is located on the island nation of Samoa. Oceania University of Medicine blends distance learning and hands-on clinical rotations to help aspiring physicians overcome distance, personal, and professional barriers to achieve their dream. OUM’s MD program is based on a full-scale, rigorous medical school curriculum, which is typically completed in four-and-a-half to five years. Students spend the first half of the program studying basic sciences through a computer-based curriculum delivered by faculty in real-time virtual classrooms and the latter half in hospital-based clinical rotations. OUM students have the best of all worlds – an easy to access, flexible preclinical study program followed by the more traditional clinical rotations arranged in hospitals in a student’s community or at OUM-affiliated hospitals and institutions. The OUM program provides a medical education to those who face distance, personal, and professional challenges, especially those individuals who live in remote areas of the world without a medical school nearby. That was the school’s original mission on the island nation of Samoa, a mission that has flourished.Show more

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Is Oceania University of Medicine in Samoa a legitimate medical school?

Thread starterVelociraptor88
Start dateMay 16, 2016

Application is now open for MD & PhD 2022 Intake

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Velociraptor88

Apr 19, 201652

May 16, 2016

It’s been over 5 years since this school was discussed on the forums, so I just wanted to see if anyone had any information on the legitimacy of Oceania University of Medicine in Samoa. Apparently, the basic science courses are taken online from home, while clinical rotations are supposedly arranged in each student’s local area. The school claims that there are graduates of their program who attained US residency slots. Does anyone know anything about this school? Don’t the various US accrediting agencies (or whatever you call them) have a strict rule that they won’t allow someone to practice here if they graduated from a program that utilizes online classes?

Assuming I’m allowed to post it, here’s a link to Oceania’s website:

http://www.oceaniamed.org/graduateMD/Reply

gyngyn

Staff memberAdministrator Volunteer Staff Lifetime Donor Verified Member Physician Faculty7+ Year Member Verified ExpertNov 4, 201125,72546,484

Attending Physician

May 16, 2016

I don’t see them on the CA Medical Board website: http://www.mbc.ca.gov/Applicants/Medical_Schools/Schools_Recognized.aspx
Many states use this recognition as a basis for considering FMG candidacy.Last edited by a moderator: May 16, 2016

Reactions:3 usersReply V

Velociraptor88

Apr 19, 201652

May 16, 2016

gyngyn said:I don’t see them on the CA Medical Board website: http://www.mbc.ca.gov/Applicants/Medical_Schools/Schools_Recognized.aspx
Many states use this recognition as a basis for considering FMG candidacy.
Thanks for the info. I noticed they’re not on the “disapproved” list either:

http://www.mbc.ca.gov/Applicants/Medical_Schools/Schools_Disapproved.aspx

However, is not being on “approved” list just as bad as being on the “disapproved” one?

Also, since the school isn’t on either of CA’s lists, would I have to just contact my own state medical board to know for certain?Reply About the Ads

gyngyn

Staff memberAdministrator Volunteer Staff Lifetime Donor Verified Member Physician Faculty7+ Year Member Verified ExpertNov 4, 201125,72546,484

Attending Physician

May 16, 2016

Velociraptor88 said:Thanks for the info. I noticed they’re not on the “disapproved” list either:

http://www.mbc.ca.gov/Applicants/Medical_Schools/Schools_Disapproved.aspx

However, is not being on “approved” list just as bad as being on the “disapproved” one?

Also, since the school isn’t on either of CA’s lists, would I have to just contact my own state medical board to know for certain?
Yes, you should contact the state in which you hope to practice.

Reactions:1 userReply

NotAProgDirector

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Attending Physician

May 16, 2016

Most schools that have online learning are junk, and are not acceptable for licensure. This is a very bad idea.

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Velociraptor88

Apr 19, 201652

May 16, 2016

aProgDirector said:Most schools that have online learning are junk, and are not acceptable for licensure. This is a very bad idea.
As far as I know, this is the only school with a curriculum that incorporate online courses. Apparently, students have to spend at least 6 weeks in Samoa at some point during the program (doing a clinical rotation, I would assume). The school’s website talks about clinical rotations being arranged at facilities in the student’s hometown, but I have no idea how local hospitals would react to the prospect of permitting an “online” student to rotate through their facilities.

I noticed you said that most schools with an online learning element are junk — do you know of any off-shore medical schools that incorporate online learning (and allow students to live where they want, without having to move to the island) that are legitimate?Reply

gyngyn

Staff memberAdministrator Volunteer Staff Lifetime Donor Verified Member Physician Faculty7+ Year Member Verified ExpertNov 4, 201125,72546,484

Attending Physician

May 17, 2016

Velociraptor88 said:I noticed you said that most schools with an online learning element are junk — do you know of any off-shore medical schools that incorporate online learning (and allow students to live where they want, without having to move to the island) that are legitimate?No. Online learning is the hallmark of the fakest “medical schools.”

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NotAProgDirector

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Attending Physician

May 17, 2016

Most schools (non medical) with distance learning are junk.

All Medical Schools with distance learning are junk. Many states will not license you because of it. Think about it — Oceana is the “first” to do so. Ross and St G’s would be doing this if it was OK. Which it isn’t. The Cali BOM specifically states that you must attend the school, not distance learning. So this will never pass muster with Cali, and probably not with NY.

I looked at Oceania’s website. They state that “OUM has several alumni in post-graduate training programs.” That’s pretty terrible, if you think about it. Several could equal 3. Where is their match list? It’s nowhere. The FAQ also hems and haws about whether you can practice in the state you want, stating that they’ve contacted states and the answer is basically “maybe”. Which you should translate as “no”

This is a big mistake.

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abn632

5+ Year MemberNov 11, 20128682

Medical Student (Accepted)

May 25, 2016

A friend of mine named Saul Goodman went to law school near there, so I know it’s totally legit.

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muqalia

5+ Year MemberFeb 15, 20114832

Attending Physician

May 26, 2016

abn632 said:A friend of mine named Saul Goodman went to law school near there, so I know it’s totally legit.
haha I love it!

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varro

May 31, 201612

May 31, 2016

I am just going to leave this here. While I can see the concern of people attending medical school online, it is certainly possible to obtain US licensure from OUM. I have been researching this for some time now and have just about talked myself into it. See attachment for education confirmation – this was taken directly from the FL Board of Medicine.

Attachments

Harris.pdf234 KB · Views: 268

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gyngyn

Staff memberAdministrator Volunteer Staff Lifetime Donor Verified Member Physician Faculty7+ Year Member Verified ExpertNov 4, 201125,72546,484

Attending Physician

Jun 1, 2016

varro said:I am just going to leave this here. While I can see the concern of people attending medical school online, it is certainly possible to obtain US licensure from OUM. I have been researching this for some time now and have just about talked myself into it. See attachment for education confirmation – this was taken directly from the FL Board of Medicine.Now if we only knew the denominator…
Was he one out of 50, 100…

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Dr. Canuck

5+ Year MemberApr 10, 2016812

Pre-Medical

Sep 12, 2016

Hi All,

My apologies upfront; this is going to be quite lengthy. I just want to be thorough.

I’m a 40-year-old Canadian who is preparing to go to med school. While I am absolutely applying to brick and mortar schools, the likelihood of me getting in is slim (based on historical admission statistics, my grades, etc. around 10% to 15%). I actually forget how I stumbled upon OUM, but I thought it was interesting. The more I looked into it, the more attractive it became. They have an extensive website (http://www.oceaniamed.org/graduateMD/) that covers almost any question you might have, but I decided to post this to remove some of the ambiguity for things that may not be obvious.

First things first: OUM shouldn’t be anyone’s first choice; it’s designed for mature students who want a shot at an M.D. The average entering student is 40.5 and most of them already have careers in healthcare (nurses, physician assistants, paramedics, etc.). As an IMG, your best shot for a residency will be in primary care (FM, peds, IM, psych). I’m personally targeting FM. The program is also super expensive (Anywhere from $140,000 – $200,000 US depending on if/where/how often you travel for your clinical rotations as most hospitals charge a weekly hosting fee, typically $200-$500 above and beyond tuition). The school is upfront about prospective students doing their due diligence to make sure that their state/province will recognize the school. They have openly admitted that CA doesn’t recognize them and tell you which states follow CA’s lead. Since I don’t plan to practice in the US, this really isn’t an issue for me, but the counselors are more than happy to answer questions about specific states. As far as Canada is concerned, my province (New Brunswick) will license me.

They offer frequent (at least monthly) hour-long online presentations with live chat via Blackboard with graduates/current students/instructors. Here’s the link to see their current offerings:

http://www.oum.edu.ws/graduateMD/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=129&Itemid=132

I’ve personally attended 10 of these sessions, including 3 sample lectures, and they are all quite informative. Again, the admission counselors are very friendly and readily accessible via email for questions.

Here are answers to a few common questions about OUM. If you have others, please check out their website, email a counselor via their site or PM me:

Regarding admissions:
The only formal academic admission requirements for North American applicants are an accredited Bachelor’s degree with a min GPA of 3.0 and a one-year course in chemistry with a lab component. While the MCAT isn’t required, they say it will strengthen your application. You also need to submit an essay about why you want to become a physician and provide three references, including at least one from a physician. I know a lot of skeptical people think because they’re a for-profit institution anyone who can prove they can pay will be admitted. From talking with them directly, it becomes obvious that this isn’t true. They make way more money from positive results and positive word-of-mouth.

If you get invited to an interview, they do two rounds. The first is more of a meet-and-greet format with one admissions counselor. They want to get a feel for your personality and to make sure you understand the commitment required. They go over the special challenges on-line students face, especially regarding gross anatomy, microbiology and pathology (high-def on-line slides/videos). They also want to make sure that you’re state will license you at this stage.

The second round is a panel format. This is where they look for qualities typically required by most med schools: Empathy, ability to handle stressful situations, etc.

If your science background is too weak for direct entry into the M.D. program, they offer a 40-week post-baccalaureate program. Scoring 70%+ in it gives you automatic admission to the M.D. program with advance standing (I believe equal to almost the 40-week mark).

They have two intake periods: January and July. Looking at past announcements on their site, there looks to be 25-30 entering students per intake. Please keep in mind that this is global; lots of students hail from Oceania (Australia, New Zealand, etc.). I think roughly half are North American; their News section has stories about historical incoming classes.

About the curriculum:
You start by attending a live orientation and white coat ceremony, typically held in Houston. I believe it lasts a few (3?) days. Most if not all of the instructors attend. Oceania students who cannot attend in person connect on-line.

For years 1 & 2:
The first phase (~two years) is your typical pre-clinical curriculum. Like most schools, the coursework preps you for the USMLE Step 1 (or equivalent, since I’m Canadian). You rotate through each subject separately and they use a problem-based learning case study format. There are live on-line interactive lectures via Blackboard throughout the week; these are archived for later review. Many students also arrange group study sessions on Skype. Your study material is accessed electronically via Clinical Key at $500/year. The instructors are typically American native English speakers and all have an M.D. or Ph.D. in the subject matter. Most of them are full-time clinicians who do this on the side. There is also a 6-week course on Research Methodology where you need to submit a preceptor-reviewed, journal-quality research paper.

One feature I really like about this phase of the program is the mentor. They supply you with the material you need to find a local M.D. to mentor you during the first two years. S/he needs to be willing to meet face-to-face for at least one hour/week and OUM pays them $50 US/hr.

Two last points about the first two years:
1. OUM has a USMLE-style, in-house exam that you need to pass before you can take Step 1.
2. There is a seven-week online clinical skills course that focuses on the non-tactile components of an exam (mannerisms, sensitivity, directed questioning, etc.). There is also an in-person component, but you have a choice: Either do the live clinical skills course hosted by Kaplan (@ about $5,000 US) OR start your clinical rotations with the requisite 12 weeks of Internal Medicine on campus in Samoa (see below).

For years 3 & 4:
The last two years are your typical clinical rotations. Of the 72 weeks’ worth, a minimum of 4 need to take place on campus in Samoa. This cost (airfare, accommodations, etc.) is above and beyond tuition and will run roughly $5,000 US. There is lots of information online about the country, but think Hawaii. OUM recommends that you do either OB/GYN (the attendings supervise but they’ll let you be the primary on uncomplicated vaginal deliveries) or 12 weeks of IM (in lieu of the Kaplan course). They also have an established network of hospitals in the US and Canada where you can rotate through. I don’t have an explicit list, but some of them are listed on their website and that is a great question for the counselors. If you have a teaching hospital nearby, they will contact them on your behalf to see if you can do some/most of your rotations there. I know they have done this in Canada (Manitoba), and as I have a teaching hospital in my hometown I’m hoping this might be a possibility.

Their clinical modules cover the usual areas (see their site for details). One thing I did notice is that psych is only four weeks and Canadian residencies (at least in Newfoundland) require a minimum of six weeks, so that would be two of my 16-weeks’ worth of electives.

About residency:
Of course there is no guarantee of getting one; it’s competitive. ERAS and the SF Match have stats on success rates. That being said, I have attended on-line talks by current residents, most recently this month by Orla Weinhold, PGY-3 in psych at Maricopa in Arizona. Her bio is here:

http://www.mihspsychiatry.org/meet-our-residents.html

She was very open about her experience and offered her email for questions. I was curious and looked this program up on FREIDA. They interview roughly 60 people for one of the 6 annual spots. I think that says a lot about the school. I also know of several other graduates but I’m not going to list them all here. For the curious, looking through the OUM site will reveal many more (especially under the News section and the videos).

The instructors help any way they can. They said that to optimize your shot at a residency you should be open to where you go. You should also do your clinical rotations at as many places as possible; your chances will increase greatly since program coordinators will typically put people they know (and made a good impression, of course) at the top of their list for an interview.

Yes, they are vague on enrollment, USMLE pass rates/scores and residency success rates. I agree that they shouldn’t be. If I had to guess, my gut says that many of the people who enroll are surprised to find how challenging it is and drop out and the school doesn’t want to scare off potential applicants. At any rate, based on my research, OUM is definitely a legitimate option for anyone who is flexible, driven and goes into it with their eyes wide open.

Again, sorry for the length. Feel free to PM for any more info.

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NotAProgDirector

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Sep 12, 2016

You’ve done a great job advertising for their school.

But the bottom line is this: They may have a flashy website, and they may have a few grads in the US doing residency, but this is, overall, a terrible choice.

Why?

1. Online education for medical school is not considered acceptable by many states.
2. This school does not list any sort of match list. Everything is a press release talking about one person. I can only see evidence of a handful of people matching in the US. That means that the rest (however many there were) failed out, or never matched.
3. You have a near 0% chance of getting a residency in Canada. As an IMG you’d be in the second iteration of CaRMS. Being from a lesser well known school, your chances are very poor.
4. Applying for a position in the US, you’ll need a visa. This will decrease your chances/options further.
5. Canada has started placing limits on J visas. So far, there’s no limit on J visas for FM. But if they start, you won’t be able to train in the US at all without one (unless you are already a dual citizen)
6. You’ll need to take the USMLE, and potentially the Canadian exams also. You didn’t mention if you took the MCAT, but remember that the only people who take the USMLE are those that do well enough on the MCAT to get into medical school. If you don’t do well on this exam, your options will be more limited.
7. They state that you can train where you live, yet only list a few states where they have established rotations.
8. If you think that some local “teaching hospital” is going to take you for your rotations, that’s pretty crazy. Perhaps it will work out, but perhaps not. Probably not.

Overall this is a terrible idea. It seems too good to be true, no? Work from home for the first two years? Rotate at your local hospital? Then just get a residency?

From your post above, either you’re a shill for Oceania, or you’re desperate and willing to consider anything no matter how many warning signs there are. If the former, shame on you. If the latter, shame on them for playing on your hopes and dreams.

If you’re going to go to an offshore medical school with the end game to practice in the US/Canada, go to one of the established schools — St G, Ross, AUC, UQ, and there are more. But attending Oceania would be a travesty, and you’ll likely just lose whatever cash you invest in it.

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Dr. Canuck

5+ Year MemberApr 10, 2016812

Pre-Medical

Sep 21, 2016

aProgDirector:

Thanks for the reply.

I never intended to be a cheerleader for the place; re-reading my initial post, I suppose it may have come off that way in parts. I just see so many people bashing these schools without apparent justification other than they’re nontraditional I figured I’d share what I knew first-hand to at least give people a better idea of how they operate.

I see that you’ve been a very active poster and I really respect the time you’ve put in helping the student community; being an attending, I imagine your word carries a lot of weight. I appreciate that you cared enough to comment on my post.

Just to touch briefly on your points:

1. Online education for medical school is not considered acceptable by many states.
I mentioned that. I also said they readily admit that California doesn’t accept ANY school with an online component and many states follow their lead. All I know is that OUM grads are practicing in the US and they meet Canada’s requirements since they are listed in FAIMER and IMED.

2. This school does not list any sort of match list. Everything is a press release talking about one person. I can only see evidence of a handful of people matching in the US. That means that the rest (however many there were) failed out, or never matched.
Being based in Oceania, they have a large student body from Australia and New Zealand. However, it is pretty sketchy that they don’t explicitly state their Step 1 scores or brag about their US residency matches each year. When I apply I plan on grilling them about their scores, enrollment numbers and match rates. If they don’t want to share that info then that’s a huge red flag and I won’t attend, period. However, based on my communication with them so far they seem pretty transparent when you ask. If I had to guess, they don’t post numbers because many fail out.

3. You have a near 0% chance of getting a residency in Canada. As an IMG you’d be in the second iteration of CaRMS. Being from a lesser well known school, your chances are very poor.
No disrespect, but please do your homework before making blatantly erroneous comments like this. CaRMS has a dedicated first-round IMG stream with 239 spots across all disciplines for 2017 versus 1234 spots for Canadian Medical Graduates (CMGs). The second round is open to all:

https://phx.e-carms.ca/phoenix-web/pd/main?mitid=1327#

4. Applying for a position in the US, you’ll need a visa. This will decrease your chances/options further.
Yes, this is true. Based on my research I’ll need a J-1 visa. Some US programs won’t consider IMGs at all. Thankfully there are 497 US FM programs and many appear to be IMG-friendly as shown by their program details on FREIDA (33.9% of FM residents are IMGs overall. This was found under Specialty Training Statistics -> Family Medicine. Program-specific percentages are found in each program under the section “Faculty & Trainees”).

5. Canada has started placing limits on J visas. So far, there’s no limit on J visas for FM. But if they start, you won’t be able to train in the US at all without one (unless you are already a dual citizen)
I saw this. I am not a dual citizen and this of course can be a concern. I’ll definitely keep an eye on it; however, the visas are limited by the Statement of Need requirement which is a letter issued by Health Canada. They allocate a certain number annually by specialty. FM actually does have a limit, but we have never come close to hitting it:

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hcs-sss/hhr-rhs/postgrad-postdoc/cat_b-list-liste-eng.php

6. You’ll need to take the USMLE, and potentially the Canadian exams also. You didn’t mention if you took the MCAT, but remember that the only people who take the USMLE are those that do well enough on the MCAT to get into medical school. If you don’t do well on this exam, your options will be more limited.
I have not taken the MCAT, but I plan to. The USMLE Step 1 looks quite similar in content to the Medical Council of Canada Qualifying Examination (MCCQE) Part I. If I luck out and get into Dal or MUN, I’ll only take the MCCQE. If I go the international route, I’ll take both to optimize my shot at a residency.

7. They state that you can train where you live, yet only list a few states where they have established rotations.
Yes. Through asking them, I know they have someone doing rotations in Canada in Manitoba. Regardless, I wouldn’t care if I had to go travel to an established site in the US.

8. If you think that some local “teaching hospital” is going to take you for your rotations, that’s pretty crazy. Perhaps it will work out, but perhaps not. Probably not.
All they say is that if you have a local teaching hospital they will reach out on your behalf; they in no way guarantee that you will be able to. Part of the rotation agreement is a weekly stipend paid to the hospital. I’m only seeing it as a possibility because in Canada the residency programs are administered by the medical schools; Dalhousie has a teaching agreement with my local hospital and they sponsor 1 FM IMG spot every year. I don’t have my hopes up, but it can’t hurt to try. Worse case they say no and I’ll rotate in the US.

Like I said, OUM shouldn’t be anyone’s first choice — does that sound like a shill? I’m not desperate, wearing blinders or rose-coloured glasses; I believe in making an informed decision through due diligence. I have in no way committed myself to attending OUM; I’m simply not discounting it out of hand. You make a great point that there are other offshore schools with proven track records. The point of this post was specifically to clarify whether OUM was “legitimate”. If you’re defining this as “have any graduates secured a residency and licensure” then yes, its legit. Is it a “good” school? Should it be regarded in the same way as those in the Caribbean? I have no idea, but I plan on researching them and finding out.

Again, thanks for caring enough to comment.

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ThoracicGuy

Verified Member Physician7+ Year MemberJun 11, 201310,82825,924

Attending Physician

Sep 21, 2016

Dr. Canuck said:aProgDirector:

Thanks for the reply.

Just to touch briefly on your points:

https://phx.e-carms.ca/phoenix-web/pd/main?mitid=1327#

Again, thanks for caring enough to comment.Click to expand…
OUM is far worse than many of the Caribbean schools. I’d pick any of the Big 4 Caribbean schools before I’d go to OUM. They do have a record of placing students into residency spots, even if they do have issues and you have significant risks of not matching. OUM is throwing your money away. Don’t do it.

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Dr. Canuck

5+ Year MemberApr 10, 2016812

Pre-Medical

Sep 21, 2016

Hi ThoracicGuy:

Thanks for joining in on the conversation.

Why is OUM “far worse”? Because they seem secretive about certain stats? Because passing Step 1 through home study seems impossible? I’m not disagreeing with you, I really don’t know either way. I’m actually going to start researching some other places tonight (Big 4, etc). Stats speak louder than opinions; do you have data to back yours up with? I’d honestly like to see some links if you , it will help with my research.

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NotAProgDirector

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Attending Physician

Sep 21, 2016

I agree I was a bit cavalier about the “you have no chance of matching in Canada” bit. Some Canadian IMG’s end up back in Canada. I didn’t realize it was quite as many as you quoted. Exactly what your chances in this would be are unclear. Looking at the CaRMS data, it looks like there were about 1700 FM IMG applicants — but many of these were prior graduates and their chances of getting a spot were very poor. Of the new graduates, looks like 91/191 matched to FM. I don’t know how many Canadian IMG’s didn’t even try to match in Canada, or applied and didn’t get any interviews and hence didn’t register for CaRMS. And I don’t know if OUM does better, or worse, than average.

The second iteration of CaRMS is not of much help, because it occurs after the NRMP match. So, to participate in the second iteration, you have to forgo the NRMP which seems a very bad choice (or simply not match at all despite trying, which wouldn’t bode well in the second iteration).

My only advice is this: be very careful beliving what they tell you. They are trying to sell you a dream. Showing you 1 or 2 people who “made it” isn’t a good sample. You may ask for their average Step 1, and they may give you a number, but you have no idea how that number was derived — they could only average those who passed, for example. Buyer beware.

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Mtoba Med

Sep 22, 201610

Sep 22, 2016

Hi Dr Canuck,

I’m from Manitoba, and I’ve been really thinking of applying at OUM.

Are u studying at OUM now?

I just want to know if there really is a teaching hospital in Manitoba. How did u learn about it? U of Manitoba is the only med school in MB.

Thanks

Dr. Canuck said:Hi All,

My apologies upfront; this is going to be quite lengthy. I just want to be thorough.

They offer frequent (at least monthly) hour-long online presentations with live chat via Blackboard with graduates/current students/instructors. Here’s the link to see their current offerings:

http://www.oum.edu.ws/graduateMD/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=129&Itemid=132

Here are answers to a few common questions about OUM. If you have others, please check out their website, email a counselor via their site or PM me:

The second round is a panel format. This is where they look for qualities typically required by most med schools: Empathy, ability to handle stressful situations, etc.

http://www.mihspsychiatry.org/meet-our-residents.html

Again, sorry for the length. Feel free to PM for any more info.Click to expand…Reply D

Dr. Canuck

5+ Year MemberApr 10, 2016812

Pre-Medical

Sep 23, 2016

Hi Mtoba Med:

I think you were at the GI presentation yesterday, correct? I said hi, but there were a lot of questions being asked in chat at the end of the session so my comment to you was probably lost in the shuffle. I asked Chris Dudley about OUM’s Canadian rotations in a previous presentation. He mentioned Manitoba, but not the particular hospital(s). I’m sure if you email him directly he’d be happy to give you specifics.

Sorry if you already know this, but I just want to be clear: Canadian clinical rotations and residency programs are administered by the med schools, whereas (and please correct me if I’m wrong everyone) US programs are administered by the hospitals. So I’m not sure if OUM needed to liaise with UoM, a particular hospital directly, or both. Negotiating rotations in general seems fairly complex: For example, in NB there are two health networks, Horizon (anglophone) and Vitalité (francophone). Dal works with hospitals throughout both of these networks and MUN works with one Horizon hospital in Waterville, NB. Again, Chris would be your best source for details about this.

No, I have not applied yet. Even though OUM doesn’t require it, I’m currently preparing for the MCAT. I live in New Brunswick. Both Dalhousie and Memorial reserve seats for NBers, so they’re my top choices. I’m also considering applying to the other English Canadian med schools. However, my chances with all of these places are slim so I’m looking closely into offshore options.

Hopefully you’ve read my (seemingly exhaustive) posts above. I tried to give an unbiased opinion of this school. aProgDirector was also kind enough to offer advice on the matter. I agree with other comments on this thread that although at least a few people have secured licensure (thereby proving it is “legit”), you really should see OUM as a backup option at best. Here are a few reasons why:

1. Med school is hard enough; although possible, you would need an incredible amount of discipline to do it successfully from home. My gut says that most people who enroll at OUM drop out during the first two years because they didn’t really understand how demanding it will be. I’ve actually been working full-time from home for the past five years, so I feel like I know the expectations. I’m also married and I’d like to stay home as long as possible, which is a big reason why I’m still considering this place. The truth is, like most things, you really would only get out of it what you put into it.

2. Brick and mortar schools add tactility (ongoing clinical skills practice, immediate face-to-face support, cadavers, experience handling equipment, etc.) which is invaluable. OUM does require you to secure a local physician as a mentor, so if you go this route my advice would be to get one who would let you job shadow on a regular basis so you could work on these skills.

3. Although they may have successfully negotiated rotations in Manitoba before, there is no guarantee that they’ll be able to continue that relationship for you. You should hedge your bets and *expect* to spend years 3 & 4 rotating through their US hospitals.

I’m also looking into other offshore options (Caribbean, etc). Here are some general things to think about when going the IMG route, especially as a Canadian:

1. What is your ultimate goal? Mine is to practice FM in NB. I believe the overall IMG match rate in NA is around 50% and most matched in primary care (FM, IM, Psych, Peds). If you are looking to practice something outside of these, your odds of matching are much, much worse and I’d strongly advise against offshoring.

2. Almost every Canadian IMG residency has a year-for-year return of service (ROS) agreement; for example, FM is only two years in Canada, but after this you’ll have to spend your first two years of practice in a place of the sponsor’s (i.e. the med school’s) choosing. All of these details are on the CaRMS web site.

3. If you study offshore, you would be wise to apply aggressively to residencies in the US. IMO, your best option would be to embrace the opportunity to rotate in the US. Divide your clinical rotations up into 18 four-week chunks and ideally rotate through 17 hospitals with FM programs (remember, with OUM you need to spend at least 4 weeks in Samoa). Introducing yourself to program directors during a rotation goes a long way to securing residency interviews.

4. US FM residencies are three years in length versus two in Canada, but there is no ROS. Also, the CCFP automatically certifies Canadians who complete FM in the US and come back to Canada to practice. My dream in retirement is to winter in the US, so for me the idea of being dual-certified is very appealing.

I’d be happy to field any other questions you may have. Feel free to post or PM.Reply

NotAProgDirector

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Sep 23, 2016

Dr. Canuck said:(please correct me if I’m wrong everyone) US programs are administered by the hospitals.This is correct. GME is a hospital based function, and although a program might be affiliated with a medical school, the two are separate. There are a few exceptions — in the DO world, there are OPTI programs that are very tightly linked to their home school, but these are a very small piece of the pie and not worth worrying about.

I agree with other comments on this thread that although at least a few people have secured licensure (thereby proving it is “legit”)I think this statement might explain some of the disagreement above. It depends upon your definition of “legit”. If you mean “it is possible to get a residency and ultimately practice (i.e. the school is not a complete scam)” then it’s “legit”. When many of us are defining “legit”, we’re saying “A good percentage of those students who start school ultimately end up in a residency”. OUM might not meet that definition.

Divide your clinical rotations up into 18 four-week chunks and ideally rotate through 17 hospitals with FM programsThis is an important issue, and an important question to ask. Medical schools can contract with any hospital, or even with private physicians, to take their students for rotations. You should NOT assume that your rotations will be at places that have residency programs. Many international schools simply send their students to community hospitals that have no residents at all. The school may tell you that all of their students rotate at “teaching hospitals” because there is no definition of such. If the school sends students there, and docs teach the students, it’s a “teaching hospital”. I would recommend asking OUM, or any other school, exactly what their rotations are. Are they at hospitals that have residency programs in the rotation you’re assigned to? Do you rotate on teams that have residents? Rotating at a community site without a residency program isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but you won’t be meeting any PD’s that way, and programs may not be impressed with your experiences.

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Dr. Canuck

5+ Year MemberApr 10, 2016812

Pre-Medical

Sep 23, 2016

aProgDirector said:When many of us are defining “legit”, we’re saying “A good percentage of those students who start school ultimately end up in a residency”. OUM might not meet that definition.
Ah, great point. Yes, you’re absolutely right. I interpreted the thread as “Have at least some graduates secured a residency?”. For all I know, every success could have been a former employee of the hospital they matched into.

aProgDirector said:You should NOT assume that your rotations will be at places that have residency programs. Many international schools simply send their students to community hospitals that have no residents at all…
Oh, wow. I’ve never considered that! Thank you so much aProgDirector. With almost 500 FM programs in the US I shamefully assumed these schools would *only* be contracting with hospitals offering residencies; although for-profit, it’s how I thought they justified charging $140,000 US for the M.D. Crap, now I need to get an explicit list of their ongoing contracts and a list of who they’ve successfully dealt with before then cross-reference them in FREIDA. I doubt I’d enroll in a school that didn’t let you meet PDs.

***(UPDATE)***
I just found this article on the OUM site that discusses the newest entering class:

http://www.oum.edu.ws/graduateMD/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=320

While perhaps not representative of the typical year, here is a demographic breakdown:

“…35 new students… Twenty-two members of the class entering OUM in July {2016} are from Australia, ten from the United States, two from Canada, and one from New Zealand.”

For the curious folk, the “320” in the above link appears to be article #320; lowering this number lets you read their archived news. Article #312 (August 2016) lists rotation updates, both who and where. Although some of these #s appear to occasionally repeat an article, it looks like there’s enough information on these pages to get a clear picture of past entering class sizes and country of origin, how many make it to rotations, where they rotate, how many graduate and, going back far enough, how many are in residency. Time to research…Last edited: Sep 24, 2016Reply

NotAProgDirector

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Sep 24, 2016

On the page of rotations you referenced, there were three students in US rotations. One site has an IM and FP program. The other two have no GME programs at all.

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Dr. Canuck

5+ Year MemberApr 10, 2016812

Pre-Medical

Sep 25, 2016

Although being founded in 2002, they only started posting public-accessible statistics in the last three years. After looking into their news posts and disseminating the information here’s what I’ve gleaned:

They have two annual intake classes, one in Jan and one in July. As I suspected there was basically no information about Canadian students other than at least 4 have enrolled over the years and it looks like there were none doing rotations this past year.

ENTERING CLASS SIZES:
2015:
Jan: 20
July: 31 – 18 AU, 9 US, 2 American Samoans, 1 CAN, 1 Singapore

2014:
Jan: 37 (largest single intake ever) – 22 AU, 10 US

2013:
Jan: 24
July: 28 – 9 AU, 17 US, 1 Japan, 1 Poland (based on the other classes, I’m suspicious that the AU and US numbers are reversed).

1. They had 7 US students rotate through 9 specialties across 9 institutions between October 2015 and August 2016.
2. Of these nine places, only 3 have residency affiliation: One has sponsored programs, one is a program affiliate, and one has both programs and is an affiliate. Does anyone know if its beneficial to rotate at an affiliate location? Can it get you in touch with a PD? Do they have an on-site program supervisor you can get a LoR from?
3. For IMGs, there are two programs (there is technically a 3rd in FM, but it requires applicants to be a US citizen or permanent resident plus have one year of recent US clinical experience). One program is in IM (with 23% current IMGs) and one in OB/GYN (5% current IMGs). Both sponsor H1-B visas.

Assuming ~30% of each class is US on average, there looks to be around 9 entering per session = 18 per year. In this past year there were only 7 US students doing rotations, which implies a dropout rate of approximately 80.5% (36 year 1 & 2 students, 7 year 3 & 4 students). This is pretty much in line with my suspicion that most people drop out leading up to or just after Step 1 – again, home study is possible but exceedingly difficult. It’s also likely why OUM doesn’t post stats.

So IF you can handle the first two years and get a decent Step 1 score, it looks like they have enough US contracts to do all of your clinical requirements. The last big question is how many of these 7 grads secure a residency? Four would put it on par with most international schools (57% match rate). I know of at least 10 who have done it, but the only way I can think of off-hand to get an exhaustive list is to search state licensing boards.

Take this for what it’s worth; I’ve pretty well exhausted my contribution to this thread.

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NotAProgDirector

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Sep 26, 2016

Nice work. I can imagine that took some time and effort.

Looking at those numbers, it seems crazy to go there. 80% drop out rate. I know you’re sure that you’ll be in the 20% that does fine. But so did the 80% of people who dropped out.

If you’re at an affiliate site, they will have a site director. That person might or might not have any bearing on the admissions process for the program.

When IMG’s rotate at US sites, their best chances of getting a spot are often at those sites. You might want to look at the sites where OUM rotates for OUM grads.

Overall, this looks like a really bad idea. But it’s your money.

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raamc4life

Nov 21, 201611

Nov 21, 2016

I have a colleague who studied his MD there. He actually works as an emergency registrar at one of the hospitals in the Metro South Brisbane region of Queensland, Australia. The biggest thing going for him was the fact he was a critical care paramedic with 15+ years of experience. He did have to sit the Australian Medical Accreditation Exam and apply to do further bridging courses before he was able to commence his internship. He never mentions going there due to the amount of crap people have given him in the past.

I wouldn’t recommend it; but, he is the only example of someone I know going to OUM.

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Renesk

Jul 15, 201716

Academic Administration

Jul 15, 2017

I stumbled on this thread about OUM while looking for something else, and I thought maybe commentators here would like to know about my experience, as the spouse of an OUM student who graduated and is now in Residency in the US …

Keep in mind, I am not a medical person, but I had a front-row seat to OUM (and can only speak for the US part of things) …

My wife grew up the daughter of a doctor and a nurse. She was around medicine all her life, and her father owned a family medical practice in small-town USA. She started medical school the traditional route, and was accepted to a medical program. However, she was unable to complete her training in the traditional format due, in a large part, to the pacing required. She is extremely dyslexic.

She chose OUM because it allowed her to tackle one course at a time, with all the intense readings it required. In that regard, it was a good fit for her. It took her eight years to finish, instead of four. So, in that regard, it was really horrible. (The gaps were more due to money than anything else. OUM is expensive! And, at the time she was there, not eligible for the loans and grants available to med students at US accredited universities.).

Once she had completed the basic coursework, she spent the next (almost) four years jetting around the US doing rotations at various hospitals. Again, money was an issue (paying for travel to and from the rotation, paying for living space and food while there, paying the hospital that agreed to take on the rotation, paying tuition to the school for the privilege of their agreeing to the rotation, paying for insurance in case the student inadvertently kills / disables someone, etc). All of that is why it took so long. She would do one or two rotations, come back home for a few months, study for the USMLE while home, before going off again to the next rotation. For those who want to know, she had rotations in: Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Maryland, Missouri, Pennsylvania, Samoa (required), and Texas. (I’m sure I’m probably forgetting a state or two). OUM does (or did) have a person who acted as liaison between school and student and worked on finding rotation placements, but my wife also did a lot of her own leg-work, seeking out contacts and chasing down leads for places that would be willing to take her on as a med student, which was a challenge because who had really heard of OUM?

Most of her OUM classmates / peers seemed to have an “in” somewhere; they were already attached to a hospital or doctor and could more easily secure their rotations through them. My wife was on her own in that regard. She tried to pick rotations that had Residencies attached to them, to better her chances for Match. She was about 50% successful. Half of her rotations were at teaching hospitals and half were not.

While doing her coursework / rotations, she went to several OUM gatherings (orientations / professional developments / etc). Seems like there were one or two a year. That was also expensive. (Some were mandatory, some were elective, but the costs adds up all the same).

She took, and passed, the USMLE Parts I and II while completing her rotations, first try. Her preparation for each test was months long. My frustration with OUM about the USMLE is that they wanted her to pass their in-house test before they allowed her to take the USMLE Part I. — I get it, I do. They want to make sure a student is ready. It also boosts their credentials if their students pass on the first go. However, her complaint was that the in-house test was not really good prep for the USMLE. (OUM has since started an overhaul of the in-house test to make it more meaningful, but, at the time, it was a waste of time).

Once she graduated, getting her in Match took a great deal of back-and-forth with the school over coursework and records and whatnot. OUM always complied with the requests, but them not having everything ready-to-go made things more arduous than it should have been.

She also did a heck of a lot of research, and only applied to Match programs that would accept OUM (which knocked out all of the West Coast – Cali, Oregon, and Washington state, as well as several other states … some of them surprising, given that they are hard-up for doctors … Kentucky? Arkansas? who knew). After all her research, she applied to 185 programs. (Don’t get me started on what *that* cost). And, in the land of Match, you can only get interviews where you have applied. She landed 9 interviews: Georgia, Florida, Hawaii, Illinois (x2), Minnesota, Nebraska, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. Some of the interviews were where she did her rotations, but most were because somewhere she did her rotations knew someone involved in the Residency selection somewhere else. (For instance, her Texas rotation had ties to the Nebraska Residency). The “good ole boy” network is alive and well in medicine, no matter what anyone else tells you.

When she ranked her programs for Match (and you can only rank programs that granted interviews), she and I were very strategic about it. (I work in Admissions, though not of the medical sort). We ranked programs based on the probability of selection to the program. Her first choice was actually ranked third, because of the number of slots available in her other top three programs. Her rank 1 program (actually her second choice) only had 4 Residency slots. If she would have placed it anywhere else on her list, there is no way she would have snagged a spot. Her rank 2 program (actually her third choice) only had 12 Residency slots. I was absolutely astounded that she wasn’t selected there, but, in hindsight, I realize that she probably would have had to have ranked them 1 in order to have any chance at all.

She matched (ironically) to her top choice (which we ranked third … they had 28 Residency slots). This was an awesome conclusion to the eight year journey that was OUM. However, once she started the paperwork to get her medical license through the state, there were some snags on getting approval, which involved a lot more back-and-forth with OUM to satisfy the state’s licensing board. She was finally granted her license 2 days before she started her Residency (the back-and-forth took four months to get resolved). For those keeping score at home, there were 2 OUM students going through Match (my wife and one other person). She matched, he didn’t. For that year, OUM had a 50% Match rate. Heh.

I will state outright that OUM is not the pathway for everyone. I would also say that OUM isn’t the pathway for anyone that can get their MD in some other way. I think my wife is one of the lucky few who graduated from OUM and is now practicing medicine as an MD in the US. And, I want to make a distinction here … I have met several OUM grads who are MDs but can’t get a job practicing medicine on their own-some because they never went through Residency. In the US, you *have* to go through a Residency program in order to practice medicine without the oversight of another doctor (who completed Residency) signing off on everything you do (Nurse Practitioners have more authority / power than that kind of MD). So, does OUM help people reach their MDs? Sure. Does it mean you will get to really practice medicine? Well, that depends …

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DokterMom

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Gold Donor Verified Member7+ Year MemberMar 1, 20135,42312,657

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Jul 15, 2017

Thank you @Renesk for the well-explained narrative of your wife’s success. Congratulations to you both for achieving your goals!

For potential students reading this, I think there are a few key takeaways that I’d like to highlight – most of which boil down to how much ownership of her own educational/training program your wife had to take, and how her success was a direct result of her own relentless initiative (with due credit to your support):

It took her eight years to finish, instead of four….

My wife also did a lot of her own leg-work, seeking out contacts and chasing down leads for places that would be willing to take her on as a med student, which was a challenge because who had really heard of OUM?

Most of her OUM classmates / peers seemed to have an “in” somewhere;

She tried to pick rotations that had Residencies attached to them, to better her chances for Match. She was about 50% successful. Half of her rotations were at teaching hospitals and half were not.

After all her research, she applied to 185 programs…. She landed 9 interviews:”
I’m really glad she made it. She earned it! The key, I think, is that the credit belongs to HER. This is a perfect example of someone owning their own future and making it happen. Had she been a more passive student, waiting for the school to make the opportunities available to her, I suspect she’d have had a much different outcome…Reply

Goro

SDN Gold Donor

Gold Donor Verified Member10+ Year Member Faculty Verified ExpertJun 11, 201065,803101,386Somewhere west of St. Louis

Non-Student

Jul 15, 2017

Do keep in mind that she represents an extreme outlier..

DokterMom said:Thank you @Renesk for the well-explained narrative of your wife’s success. Congratulations to you both for achieving your goals!

I’m really glad she made it. She earned it! The key, I think, is that the credit belongs to HER. This is a perfect example of someone owning their own future and making it happen. Had she been a more passive student, waiting for the school to make the opportunities available to her, I suspect she’d have had a much different outcome…Click to expand…

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bearded frog

7+ Year MemberFeb 24, 2014337197

Resident [Any Field]

Jul 15, 2017

Renesk said:When she ranked her programs for Match (and you can only rank programs that granted interviews), she and I were very strategic about it. (I work in Admissions, though not of the medical sort). We ranked programs based on the probability of selection to the program. Her first choice was actually ranked third, because of the number of slots available in her other top three programs. Her rank 1 program (actually her second choice) only had 4 Residency slots. If she would have placed it anywhere else on her list, there is no way she would have snagged a spot. Her rank 2 program (actually her third choice) only had 12 Residency slots. I was absolutely astounded that she wasn’t selected there, but, in hindsight, I realize that she probably would have had to have ranked them 1 in order to have any chance at all.
This paragraph is factually incorrect and not how the match works. You should rank in order of your preference no matter what. There is literally no advantage to not doing this, and only the possibility of you getting a less desired program higher on your list. You cannot “game” the system. Number of program spots doesn’t matter because the algorithm is applicant-first. I’m glad it worked out for this person, but its clear they would have had the same outcome if they had ranked their actual number one first. The algorithm is publicly available, and one of its developers won the Nobel prize in economics in 2012 for his work on it.

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gyngyn

Staff memberAdministrator Volunteer Staff Lifetime Donor Verified Member Physician Faculty7+ Year Member Verified ExpertNov 4, 201125,72546,484

Attending Physician

Jul 15, 2017

bearded frog said:This paragraph is factually incorrect and not how the match works. You should rank in order of your preference no matter what. There is literally no advantage to not doing this, and only the possibility of you getting a less desired program higher on your list. You cannot “game” the system. Number of program spots doesn’t matter because the algorithm is applicant-first. I’m glad it worked out for this person, but its clear they would have had the same outcome if they had ranked their actual number one first. The algorithm is publicly available, and one of its developers won the Nobel prize in economics in 2012 for his work on it.You are entirely correct regarding the rank order list.

I believe the Nobel was for the “Couples Match” algorithm…Reply B

bearded frog

7+ Year MemberFeb 24, 2014337197

Resident [Any Field]

Jul 15, 2017

From what I can tell, the award was to Lloyd Shapley and Alvin Roth for their work in market design and game theory. Prior to 1997 the NRMP used a matching algorithm that Roth studied and found that it was hospital favoured and could be manipulated by applicants not ranking in their best interest. The NRMP asked Roth and Elliott Peranson to create a new algorithm which was introduced in 1997, which was applicant favoured, prevented manipulation by hospitals, and included the couples match for the first time. Source

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gyngyn

Staff memberAdministrator Volunteer Staff Lifetime Donor Verified Member Physician Faculty7+ Year Member Verified ExpertNov 4, 201125,72546,484

Attending Physician

Jul 15, 2017

bearded frog said:From what I can tell, the award was to Lloyd Shapley and Alvin Roth for their work in market design and game theory. Prior to 1997 the NRMP used a matching algorithm that Roth studied and found that it was hospital favoured and could be manipulated by applicants not ranking in their best interest. The NRMP asked Roth and Elliott Peranson to create a new algorithm which was introduced in 1997, which was applicant favoured, prevented manipulation by hospitals, and included the couples match for the first time. SourceAs noteworthy as the original algorithm was, I believe it was the Couple’s match that garnered the prize. One might say that the couple’s match was built upon the original algorithm, though.

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